What happened to the most important button of all the stuff on the "my words" page, namely the "add word" button?

I haven't added any words in a while but I remember there used to be a "add this word to the que" or something like that.

If you click a checkbox, you can then select "add to list" from the drop down menu near the top.

I dont get it. I want to add words that aren't in the list...I mean words that are in the list are words that I'm already studying...right?

I just want to add a completely new word.

You have to go to the vocab lists page, to user made lists, and either create a new list or add it to an old one.

The queue doesn't exist any more.

Are you kidding me???? The add words function was easily the most important and useful tool on the my words page, and it should be a huge flashing button on top so that it's the first thing you see. But instead they removed it??? I don't want to whine, but this is honestly beyond stupid and like 10 giant steps backwards.
I thought they would make adding words even easier and faster, maybe with some kind of extra popup window so that you always could add new words that you've found by just typing them in, but instead they make it more complicated and slower?

They need to get their heads straight and fix this ASAP! I find words when watching movies etc all the time that I want to be able to add in a simple and effective fashion, and I dont think that I'm alone.

DaXia, the process for quickly adding a word is like this:

1) Go to vocab lists page
2) Click "Quick Add"
3) Paste in the word(s)
4) Hit "Add Words"
5) Hit "Add Words to list"

You don't have to be so mean about it. Constructive criticism is more helpful.

I know, I know... Unlike with your iphone is doomed rant, I actually entirely agree this time :p.

The idea, as I have gathered, is that they want newbies to focus more on prebuilt lists, so are unwilling to make it obvious that you can add stuff easily. I don't see why the two are exclusive, but they've barely been wanting to budge on this one so far.

My solution (or at least the best of them) was to put a quick add box at the top of the my vocab page, which you quickly add to the end of any list from. But it didn't work for the above reason.

My other idea (and this would go alongside, definitely not mutually exclusive) was that there should either be a quick add box on the description tab of a list (which auto adds an item to the end of the last section), or at very least a quick add popup beside each section on the contents tab.

Instead we've got a sort of quick add for one list only (Miscellaneous), which doesn't make sense, and if you click through to a list, if you're sharp eyed there's a 'quick add' button on the left. Although the amount of clicks you have to go through choosing a section and what not, it barely counts as quick.

It would be nice if they did something about this :p.

The one very useful benefit that I can see is that you can now see all the words that you have added in the list, which is useful.

However I agree that it isn't a tremendous improvement as I had the old add words page saved as a bookmark before so it was quicker than the new system.

2 other minor problems are that:

1.every time you put a new item in it it says 'updates' next to the Miscellaneous list on your study page which is kinda annoying and seems (to me) pointless.

2. if you add a new word to a list that already has words on it then go to study it it will scan through the entire list looking for a new word which can take some time.

Nick
If you want more constructive criticism, how about actually trying to find out what the users think before implementing these "upgrades" (downgrades)?
The add word function is by far the most used and most simple of functions in a "flashcard" environment, which skritter kind of is.
It should be super easy, and the first thing a user sees when he enters the "my words" page.
If I were to be a user thats new to skritter, I would be completely lost on the vocab list pages, and have no idea of how to add new words. Even though I have used skritter for almost 8 months, I had no idea of how to add new words when I couldn't find the add word button on my words, and thats why I actually had to ask on the forums. The fact that a user has to ask how to "start skrittering" (since adding new words probably is the first thing many new skritter users want to do), should speak very clear to you that something is very wrong.
Even people who normally disagrees with me and defend you guys when I rant about something are actually siding with me on this one.

The reason I was a bit harsh is that I thought that it was so obvious that "hiding" the add words function was a stupid idea, that it almost felt like you guys did it just to piss us off (which I know you didn't, but still...)

I agree that the quick add is not so quick as it was. Although the improvements to the list system and the control we now have over the "queue" is great. I have always wanted a way to independently add words from the queue to my studies. It is now possible thanks to the new list system.

The definition popup is also a great improvement in my opinion.

However, as I posted on the blog announcement as well, there is now one more step in the "quick-add" from the definition page. This was previously discussed.

Maybe there could be a poll about this: Does anyone add words from the definition popup to any other list than the 'queue' or rather to the 'Miscellaneous' list.

I know I never do and dont see the need arising in the future. If this is the case with most people, then we dont need the extra click.

This is a slightly different problem than the one DaXia mentioned. Another possible solution would be to put a "quick-add" button next to all the lists in the vocab page. If you click on it, there is a popup that lets you select a section to add to. This would be 2 clicks less than the current way of doing.

I will admit that trying to add a word on the fly was a bit odd and if I hadn't been familiar with the site it probably would have taken longer.

The point of the queue was to add items that you didn't want to associate with a specific list or didn't have a place for it in a current list. I understand now we have the misc list, which is essentially the old queue though not as obvious as it was before.

I have bookmarked the misc list page for quick adding now, which is I think what we are meant to do?

Many Skritter power users have used the site for a long time, and developed their own unique style of studying. Some heavily rely on the queue; others rely on creating custom vocab lists. One user has stated he studies one aspect of vocab for a stretch (tones, for example), and then moves on to another, like writing.

When the developers make changes to the site, it disrupts our individual studying system and it can be frustrating. In fact, when I had a problem with the recent changes, I was really frustrated. I used the contact message to e-mail the guys.

They responded to my questions immediately. I explained how I study, why I was having a problem, and they listened. After two days, George actually redesigned a part of the study page to help me out.

What I *didn't* do was tell them what they did was beyond stupid. And that they need to get their heads on straight. And that if they don't want me to be insulting, then next time they need to come to me first before making "downgrades".

A small business is always focused on growing. They are trying to make things easier for new Chinese learners. At the same time, they want to please their existing customer base. Right now, it is very intimidating for new users to come in and use the interface; the new system is trying to help out with that. They are also very loyal to their existing customers; sometimes there will be tension between satisfying those two goals.

Adding words thru 'Miscellaneous' list seems quite easy for me. Only finding the link in a new place. Well, you have to note "lifting" the list to study, too. For that is the note "updates". Very easy.

孟志书: "The point of the queue was to add items that you didn't want to associate with a specific list or didn't have a place for it in a current list."

My point exactly. I would also add to it, that the queue/misc is also the place to drop random words quickly...

Simplification of this way of adding would be great - if possible.

Either with something like when adding from MDBG. Where the adding goes to a new tab and add automatically to a list if not changed. (Although, in my opinion, the default list should be Misc and not a new list MDBG. Group all the miscellaneous words together in one list: 'Miscellaneous' )

Or without any option to change the list at all when adding from the definition popup.

@atdlouis

I'll admit to being a little hot-headed, but that was how I felt, and kind of still feels. The reason was that (from my point of view), hiding the add new words function inside the vocab lists with the intention of making it quicker was pretty (stupid might be too strong a word) "illogical".

I never meant that they have to ask my "permission" to do anything, and I am sorry if you got that from what I wrote, but I do, however, feel that they might gain a lot by actually communicating with the users, thus making at least the big majority happy.

I have suggested this before, but wouldn't it be great with some kind of simple rating system, where users could grade different functions of skritter?
Kind of like the polls we are having right now, but with questions that actually matter, and not "what movie genre do you like", or "what's in your music collection".

This is what I would do.

1. Put a link up on the forum page, right next to "The forum", called "Rate us" or something like that.
2. On the "Rate us" page, you could have a number of different polls about things on the page, for example
"How do you like the new add word system", or "Would you like a future android app" etc etc

This way, the skritter team could get a great response from us users, and we (the users) could get an idea about what will happen in the future.

I think you have some good points. However, your choice of words left a lot to be desired. Nick and the other Skritter guys are never disrespectful to us users, and they deserve the same kind of respect from us.

James

I almost never used the queue because I wanted all my words to be visible in a list so I can keep track of all of them (I even didn't notice the "add words" button.) I also *always* make remixes of lists made by others. As a result, I have a bazillion custom lists.
A possible solution is an "add word" button that sends words straight to the Miscellaneous list. I can see how this would make things quicker.

It is silly to treat the miscellaneous list as a special case. Even using it as a plaster over the current creaks wont work forever.

Even if you did start using that list for everything (due to the supposedly 'quick add') what happens when you've got 10, 15, 20+ sections and want to start fresh with a new list?

Well, you can't simply erase the current sections, as that would delete the words you're studying. And if you start a new list, suddenly, there's no 'quick add' any more.

Make it easy and quick to add to all lists (and more so than what the miscellaneous list currently offers), -- after all, with the queue gone, there's no reason for any difference between them.

What you say make sense Byzanti.

All I am advocating is that when we add from the definition popup it should go straight to the Miscellaneous list. Or at least if not changed, it should go straight there.

I can not see, however, that normal adding to lists, if they are issued with a quick add buttons, would be any faster than what the current misc list offer?

It strikes me that this quest to make every single word in "My Words" be a member of a list is a mistake. My conception of Skritter mirrors my conception of language generally: there is one set of all the words there are in the universe, and that set divided into two subsets: words I know, and words I don't know. Lists can be an efficient way of moving words from one subset to the other. I can take a list of words I don't know, study the list, and afterwards those words will be in the category of words I know. The list is now superfluous because the word is now in "my words"--I don't need to know how it got there any more than I need to know that "quixotic" was in Unit 3 of my 9th grade vocab book.

For all the expediencies of a robust list system, there should be some concession to the fact that language acquisition is not always as structured and orderly as we might hope. The late Queue was enormously useful as a direct way of moving words from "words I don't know" to "words I know" without having to use a list as an interim step. For instance, I had a link to the quick add page on my phone, so that if someone said a word in conversation, I could quickly add it in right there. I also had the Zhongwen plugin for Chrome which could likewise quickly add to the Queue a word I came across while randomly trolling the internet.

Most of the workaround solutions mention above involve using the "Miscellaneous" list as a proxy for the late Queue. This is a hack, and an ugly one at that. As many others have noted, it requires a bunch of extra clicks to add words this way. While slightly irritating on a computer, the extra clicks become maddening on my antiquated smartphone.

But furthermore, and from a simply aesthetic point of view, I don't like having the "miscellaneous" list on the Study page as though it were just another list: it's a random morass of words that have no relationship to each other other than that they happened to have caught my fancy at some point. That particular collection of words has no use to me and certainly no use to anyone else; its sole purpose was to transfer words from "Word I don't know" to "Words I know." That was a task for which the late Queue was eminently well-suited, and for which the "miscellaneous" list is not--and I expect miscellaneous will become even less suited to this task when, as Byzanti points out, it eventually fills up and I have to create a Son of Miscellaneous to take its place.

In summation, therefore, and by way of the constructive criticism solicited above, I suggest that the late Queue be restored, resuscitated, and revived in its former state. To the extent that the recently reformed list system is incompatible with the continued existence of the Queue, it is my humble opinion that any benefits engendered by the reforms are not worth it.

Applause, dbkluck, that was beautifully articulated and I agree wholeheartedly.

dbkluck - there are two issues you're talking about.

The first is of ease of adding things, the second is of a general broad conception.

For the first -- I do not dream of the queue back as before. It was clunky too, in many ways. Namely the need to click many many times to get to the end of it. A system which is all lists is fine, it's just that the current implementation is slow in a different way, and does not provide for easy adding.

Here are two mock ups I sent Scott and Nick a while back. Something like this, I think would handle the problems we're having now.

http://www.byzanti.co.uk/vocab.png
http://www.byzanti.co.uk/vocab-lists.png

(Words would be auto added to the end of the list, it would not prompt you for a section).

As for the second issue - of conception. It also seemed more obvious to me that a system where there is a pool of unknown items going into a pool of known items was a better system than 'all your stuff must exists in lists'.

After Scott explained it, I now see the conception as less of a problem. There is certainly a problem however with this new way - that it is far far too easy to unintentionally remove items from practice. More in the way of explanation and large red warning text, I think, would help resolve this.

@dbkluck While I understand the frustration, please please please do not resurrect the Queue in its previous form. Even when short it was hard to deal with, as it wasn't like the vocab lists, and when it got long it was completely unmanageable.

Hoo boy, okay everybody it's going to be all right. We're here, we're on the job, we're trying to cover everybody's needs as best we can. This new system isn't perfect but please give it a chance and please give us a chance to tweak it to satisfy everyone as much as possible. Currently my to do list is still going up faster than I can actually get stuff done (today has been entirely communication for me, no programming at all...) so changes are gradual but they are coming and they are largely determined by your input.

Okay, one thing at a time.

@Byzanti:

"The idea, as I have gathered, is that they want newbies to focus more on prebuilt lists, so are unwilling to make it obvious that you can add stuff easily. I don't see why the two are exclusive, but they've barely been wanting to budge on this one so far. "

Not exactly true. Our aim is to balance by making sure it's understood that the prebuilt lists exist, and not to have them assume they have to add everything by hand, which could easily happen if that's the front and center thing on the vocab nav with everything pushed down as you suggested. The way it is now, new users are aware that they can both use existing lists and can make their own, so both aims are fulfilled which is what we want.

Could you explain why quick adding to one list (Misc) doesn't make sense? Before you could only quick add to the queue, so I'm not sure what difference you're referring to. Also, you can quick add to any list, but the misc list is simply the default one.

@Antimacassar: The updates showing up when you add words to the misc list shouldn't happen; that's a bug. I tried to reproduce it though and I couldn't. How exactly are you adding words? This is actually only supposed to happen if someone else edits a list that you're studying, a precursor to allowing editing of published lists.

As for rescanning the list, that also sounds like a bug. If you don't change the list settings this shouldn't happen. It should just start right where the the new words were added or at the new section. However, it's on my list to make what should be this rare case go much faster so you don't have to wait for it to scan. Can you let me know which one of your lists is doing this, and when it started doing this?

@DaXia: We have been continuously talking about these updates ever since they were conceived this past spring, and they were born out of requests and questions and problems from users so we didn't foresee these issues being as large as they were. Looking back (hindsight is 20/20), I think it would have been better if we had done some actual alpha testing but the changes were so fundamental that it would have taken much longer to build with alpha testing than it already took, and it took months to complete as it was.

I disagree that users are completely lost on the vocab list pages. We just completed UX testing of the new system and the results simply put are the best we've ever had. We've revamped the list system many times since we began and each time we discovered new things that were tripping people up badly but this time for the first time the testers passed with flying colors. In my opinion our concern right now isn't tweaking it to make it understandable to new users, it's making sure you guys can continue doing the sorts of things you are used to with as much ease as possible.

But in either case your delivery is just uncalled for. We answer every email, we listen to every problem, and we openly discuss issues with everyone who comes forward with them. But we will not stand being insulted for our work and have our efforts tarred. Throwing a fit implies that you need to throw one in order to get our attention and we have worked hard these past years to make it very clear that we are in constant communication with anyone who needs to speak with us, period. Your behaviour is just inappropriate and unfair and it is not the way to get something you want. I want you to understand that it is not because of your behaviour but in spite of it that we continue to take your complaints seriously.

@aharlekyn: By definition page, what do you mean exactly? The word popup you get by clicking the magnifying glass in the study page, or by clicking the character when it's in a list? It's true you may never need the extra click, but I think it may be handy enough to have the option of using. Perhaps there could be a setting if there's as much of a split as there appears to be. A poll might be a good idea though.

And responding to your second post, one of the tweaks we made post-release was having the system remember what list you added to last over a given service. So if you switch the MDBG list to Misc once, it will go there the next time you add something from MDBG until you change it once more. Or were you thinking for new users it just ought to go to the Misc list from the very beginning?

@孟志书: Bookmarking the list is probably the best way if you need to quick add to a particular list, or simply using the 'quick add' link in the general vocab page as Nick described above. Or whatever ends up being the solution to this issue in general.

@Byzanti: "what happens when you've got 10, 15, 20+ sections and want to start fresh with a new list?" I have on my list to change quick add so that it remembers where you added last like the MDBG and Zhongwen and Bookmarklet quick add pages do. This would fix that problem; you simply add to the new list and that is your new 'quick add' list.

@dbkluck: I disagree that it's a hack, because the system has been rebuilt from the ground up to allow lists to work like queues. Hacks are when you do something that aren't intended by the designers, but we were definitely designing it this way. Lists are now built to work like queues. The Miscellaneous list for all intents and purposes was built by us to replace the queue, but still be just as easy to add to as the queue, and provide greater services than the queue ever did (all the things you can do with a list). If it's not living up to its intended purpose then we will first work on it to try and make it so, before resorting to anything drastic like going back to the drawing board and starting anew.

I guess what I'm having trouble understanding here is why the additional information is a problem. Actually it's not even additional info, it's the same as before just under a new name; in the old system the queue was also listed in the sources, just as it says words are sourced from the Misc list like now. And just as before you can ignore the list of sources if you don't care. Sure the words are in a list somewhere but that doesn't mean you have to look through that list. The information is there only if you want to access it, but I'm failing to understand why it being there and out of the way is detrimental. Simply add to the misc list like you did to the queue and ignore that list and nothing will be different except instead of saying 'Added from The Queue' it will say on the study page 'Added from Miscellaneous - September 2011'. You can continue to think of words being in "My Words" because that's where they are, that page and its info hasn't changed any either.

As for the miscellaneous list being in the study page, this is simply in response to the request to have features of the list be available for the queue (now the misc list). You can pause it, you can resume it, and you can see how many words there are left to add from it (hover over it to get the number currently) and so on. As pointed out by Byzanti and James, the old queue was just not up to snuff, and making it into a list was the easiest and most consistent way to make it that much more powerful. I've brought up the idea of allowing lists to be 'hidden' in the study nav but I wasn't sure there was enough demand to merit this additional feature. Maybe we should still consider it if certain lists are still found to be eye sores by many people?

OKAY - So here's how I read this all put together. The main problem here is that quick add is just not quick enough. There are many solutions being thrown around, some of which we're reluctant to do for a variety of reasons, but it's clear we need to find one or more to do. Here are all the ones I've heard:

- Quick add built into the vocab nav, or made more visible (Byzanti)
- Quick add built into the vocab list pages (Byzanti)
- Skip the word popup and just always add to the Misc list, no options given (aharlekyn)
- Have a setting for the last solution
- Have a separate page for quick adding, rather than having it be in a popup you have to click to open.
- Put the queue back where it was (dbkluck)

Now if we made adding as easy and fast as the queue used to be, or more so, would that satisfy most peoples' needs? In terms of possible solutions, I understand the reverting to the queue idea is not supported by a couple; are there any of these other ones that people would NOT like to have happen, or would really really prefer to have happen? And any further ideas for fixing this?

I think I've addressed all the other issues brought up in this thread above, but there's a lot to go over so please let me know if I missed an important point.

I need to clarify from my post above. After I e-mailed the guys and explained the problems I was having with the changes, and explained the reasoning behind my studying method, it was *Scott* (the man who just posted above) who redesigned a small part of the site to help me out.

In the end, I think all of us long term users have adopted a unique study habit with Skritter. The guys are making changes to the site to help out new users. We just aren't in a position to say if the changes are effective or not because we are too familiar with the site.

And when they do make changes, it's a painful for us long term users because it will impact how we each use the site. All it takes is a week of getting used to the changes, and I think for the most part you'll figure out how to do your old routine.

"If we made adding as easy and fast as the queue used to be, or more so," I think that would satisfy most of my practical needs. If some form of list-hiding is implemented, I think that would satisfy most of my aesthetic desires.

I would add that one other feature of the queue that I would occasionally use, and now miss, is that when clicking the green plus sign to add a word to the queue, it was easy to just click it again and remove it from the queue if i decided in the next minute or so that I had changed my mind and didn't want it right then. As it stands now, once I've said "go ahead, add it to miscellaneous," I have go to the Study tab, click on the Miscellaneous list, click contents, click September 2011, click "edit this section," scroll down, find the word, click the "x", then click "save." (If anyone is aware of a faster way of doing this, I'd be grateful to hear it).

I suppose that's a fair punishment when Skritter specifically asked me whether I wanted to add it to that section and I said "yes," but if any sort of quick add functionality is implemented, there should also be a quicker way of undoing it.

I realize that the current misc list is more functional than the old queue. It's nice to be able to see what I did add, delete something rather than paginating through numerous queue pages to find it and to be able to pause it.

I really like the ideology behind what dbkluck said, "The late Queue was enormously useful as a direct way of moving words from 'words I don't know' to 'words I know' without having to use a list as an interim step."

This is how I've been using Skritter. I can learn from a list, but there are always so many things I pick up along the way. For example, I run into the word 鳄鱼 while learning 爬行动物 which should obviously be part of a list (or even two), but I learned them as single entities. Perhaps they'll be part of a lists later on, but that's not how I learned them.

I admit I can get Skritter to do everything I want it to do give or take a click here and there as thing change. So perhaps it's a problem with the concept rather than the functionality?

In general: Over the past few years I have been involved in quite a couple of start-ups. I still have to see another business with the same amount of customer support and feedback as with the Skritter guys. And terms of finding out what consumers want and developing something new to furnish this need, they are way ahead of most international corporations with departments to do what they are doing.

@ Scott: Thanks for the MDGB fix. Did not think to check it. Yes, I mean the popup you get by clicking the magnifying glass in the study page. A third option would be to open a new tab when you click on the add button and then have the same concept as with MDGB so that once I clicked "add" in the pop-up I can return to my studies and later close the extra tab.

@dbkluck: Just to add to what was already said about the new "queue" - if I may use your metaphor: most of what you say, make sense on face value, but it is only true if you never want to study new things from your Unit 3 or 4 from your 9th grade vocab. With the old system you had to through away all you other "books" until just this intangible book in space somewhere is left. Then you can hit the green add button in your study page to add another word. Now you can just open your "book", and there it is. Alongside all your other "books". This is a big improvement.

"Could you explain why quick adding to one list (Misc) doesn't make sense? Before you could only quick add to the queue, so I'm not sure what difference you're referring to.

@Byzanti: "what happens when you've got 10, 15, 20+ sections and want to start fresh with a new list?" I have on my list to change quick add so that it remembers where you added last like the MDBG and Zhongwen and Bookmarklet quick add pages do. This would fix that problem; you simply add to the new list and that is your new 'quick add' list."

I think I explained why quick adding to one list doesn't make sense any more in that second post. But to reiterate, the number one reason is that Misc list will at some point become unmanageable and a new list needs to be started. The difference between this and the queue is that words dropped out of the queue after being studied, but they remain in lists, and the lists just get overgrown. It's good to see that we'll be able to change what list out MDBG clicks go to, but if it remains that the Misc list is the only list on the vocab page with a proper quick add (not that I think it sufficiently does at the moment, but never mind), then that functionality would also be lost.

The second reason is that, given that lists are now homogeneous, why make differences? Why make it that only one list can be quick added to, or whatnot? What if, say I was studying from two different sources, and wanted to keep the lists separate? If you make all lists easy to add to, then it's a lot more adaptable to people's study needs.

I don't see why that would be more difficult than making one list king.

(PS, the other part of my suggestion about the quick adds, is that unlike how it is currently, the words would just go to the end of the list, no mucking around with sections and stuff. If by section is wanted they can either go to the content tab quick add (if you were to implement that) or just to the usual edit box. Keeps things quick this way).

You say you don't want a quick add box at the top of the vocab page. I'm not convinced it would confuse newbies - it's short and unless you're running on a phone browser you can see immediately beneath it that there are official list (+ the tutorial tab on the right). I'm not sure what I'm about to suggest is a great solution, but it may be something to consider.Consider the vocab page in blocks. There's one block for official lists, one block for user lists, one block for chinesepod, and could easily be one block for a quick add (to any list). I don't know how technically difficult it would be for you, but if you didn't want the quick add at the top, how about putting it at the bottom, and then do something like on bbc.co.uk where we can move the different portions around?

Sometimes I think about how commercially successful Apple is, considering that it by design limits consumer choice.

The more moving parts Skritter has, the more bugs there will be, the more complicated site maintenance becomes, the less time they will have to actually design new features. Something for us all to keep in mind.

@Scott, I just added a word to the Miscellaneous list and the same thing happened. Next to the list it now says 'updates' and also it says 0.8% complete (122 left) even though it must be around 99% complete which is probably why it scans the whole list looking for the words I just added (which are obviously at the bottom of the list so takes a while)

Currently, in the block “Made by Me”, there’s already a “Make a new list” link at the bottom and a “Quick add” on the right of “Miscellaneous”. The main problem is that they are not obvious enough. I’d suggest replacing them with some brightly colored large buttons so everyone is aware of their existence. Also, since these two functions operate only on this block, it is highly logical to place them there and not elsewhere.

As to the problem of the Misc list growing too large, can we have a function that will promote a section of a list into a new list and then delete that section from the original?

@Scott: I have the same problem as Antimacassar regarding the Miscellaneous list. It now says it's 1.1% complete, but that's obviously wrong. I guess this is why I now often get a "still looking for a word to add" message during study, which I never got before the list overhaul.

I also have a question about adding words through the bookmarklet or through mdbg. When I do so it now opens a new tab that says the word will be added in 5 seconds, and then counts down, giving me time to change the list to add to. If I close this tab straight away will the word still be added, or do I have to wait until the countdown is finished? I've been waiting out of uncertainty, and this is another thing slowing me down.

Personally I couldn't care less which list it gets added to. I agree with dbkluck that all that matters is whether I know it or not. If I can remember the context in which I heard or read it that will most definitely help me to learn it, but the fact is it's a random word that doesn't belong to any list. The words in my miscellaneous, mdbg and bookmarklet lists are all equally random and unrelated, so they might as well all go into one random list. Sections of these lists are also irrelevant, so I would prefer not to waste time choosing a section, but just keep adding words to the first section until it reaches the limit (200 I think) and then create a new section.

The whole concept behind Skritter, as I understand it, is to let the algorithm determine what I need to study rather than choosing what to study myself, so I don't pay much attention to how my words are sorted.

@junglegirl, I don't think it adds the word if you close the window before the 5 second is up. I closed it once on accident and the word didn't get added. I've also noticed after waiting the 5 seconds and adding a word (in Chrome) you have to close the tab to bookmarklet another word. It doesn't seem to want to open a new or overload the tab. Actually now I'm realizing several words I thought I had added that seem to be missing.

@dbkluck: We'll work on making quick adding quicker; we'll discuss solutions tomorrow at our meeting. In the meantime please continue discussing what would be your preferred way to speed up the process (and why), we'll be reading everything.

That's a good point about being able to easily undo the quick add. Hadn't thought about that feature before; we'll see if we can work that in.

@孟志书: I guess it is about concept. Really, we're just swapping the queue for a list, but they're both mediums for adding words. Previously you were using the queue as the interim step, now you're using the misc list. The misc list is intended to be used if you don't care what list a word goes into just as the queue was. If we made the misc list generally invisible and inaccessible, it would work just like the queue (assuming all bugs were fixed) except for the new method for adding words. So if we change how words are added to it to make it faster and easier, there should be no meaningful difference between adding to the misc list and adding to the queue. Perhaps after we solve that we could consider presenting the misc list more like the queue was before. I'd say though let's start by improving how words are quick added to lists.

@ahalekyn: We'll add that to the list of possibilities, or consider using a similar setup (using a timeout) for quick adding words as we use for adding words from MDBG. That's an interesting idea. There could be an out of the way message somewhere when you quick add rather than a popup that forces you to respond. Thanks, this is definitely something to look into.

@Byzanti: I don't understand in what way the misc list would ever become unmanageable; are you talking about for you or the system? The system is built for lists to become quite large and can handle it, with as many as 500 sections and up to 200 words each, and in the exceedingly rare case where you try to add words to a 500 section list it creates a new list automatically and just keeps going indefinitely, and handles 200 word sections similarly. The concept of 'overgrown' then doesn't exist for the system. So you don't have to worry about Skritter finding the list unmanageable; I promise it's been built to scale well, and I aim to improve the scalability further. If you mean you yourself would find the list unmanageable, I don't quite grok that either. From my understanding you're not interested in doing any sort of list management for the queue or misc list. You don't want to remove these words from your studies, and you're not interested in browsing them either (given that you want them removed from view but not from study), am I correct? And only in those cases would it being a huge list be an issue, as near as I can tell. So in what way would you want to manage the list more than what Skritter does by itself? Please be specific and define what you mean by 'manage'.

You say only one list can be quick added to, that it's king, but that's not true, the misc list is just a default. All lists can be quick added to via their own pages, and you will soon be able to change what the default is on the vocab nav. That's the point of quick add; it allows you to choose any list to quick add to if you so choose. There is no difference except that one list is the default choice on the vocab nav, the reasoning being that normally you want to keep quick adding to the same list as you did before. If we didn't have a default choice for quick adding to then you'd have to choose a list every time you quick add from that page and it would be slower, which wouldn't make sense would it? I think what you're trying to say is we just need to make quick add faster, which will make it faster to quick add for every list. Is this correct?

We'll consider again embedding the quick add on the vocab nav but we're pretty reluctant to do that still. That page works really well as it is now on its own for what we've tested on it, and has a lot of content on it. Can you imagine putting in ten or more words into it and pushing everything down to make space? Having the editor in its own separate page or popup is really much better organization wise. I think there has to be a better solution.

@Antimacassar: thanks for bringing that to my attention. I've now found the bug that was causing this and it should work correctly now (and improve things a lot for people), in that it won't go back to the beginning of the section anymore. I think I may have also fixed the updates link from showing up erroneously, but if you see it again let me know. If you add words to the end of a list though, the progress should be correct now. There are other less frequent cases where the progress will drop further than it should (like when you add words to an earlier section in a list) but I've got plans to fix those edge cases as well.

@pts: Making the links more prominant would be more about making sure newcomers know it's there I think, whereas the main problem right now is figuring out how to make quick add quicker. Our tests show that people unfamiliar with the site don't have a problem finding those links, so I don't think that's a big issue. What do you think?

I addressed Byzanti's concerns about lists becoming too large; could you also explain in what way a list becomes too large? Really list largesse should not be an issue, and I don't understand why it has become one... What would a too large list look like and how would it cause ill effects?

@junglegirl: Fixed the bug for Antimacassar, should work properly for you as well. Let me know if that's not the case!

I tweaked that page (last week I think) to go ahead and add the word if the tab is closed before the timer runs out. There's still a bug though where if you switch that tab to another page from the outside, it doesn't work. So if you rapid fire click several MDBG buttons, then it won't add properly. It's on my list to fix that bug. I think also it may not add the word if the page hasn't finished loading completely, so if you quickly close the tab after opening it then it probably doesn't work... Okay that page needs more work to catch more edge cases but it's being worked on.

And you're spot on about the whole concept behind Skritter. As with the new list system, the goal is to make Skritter work really well if you don't fiddle with any settings or go out of your way to organize things, but the option is there to have control if you want it. Management should be kept minimal.

@孟志书: In what way did you close the tab exactly? I just tested and it still works (though I found an unrelated bug and fixed it). Does the explanation for junglegirl above explain this or could this be a separate problem?

Well guys...you can hate me for being a rude hot-head, but you cannot say I dont make things happen.

Thanks to the skritter team for putting up with my rage-rants and for always striving to become better.

" You don't want to remove these words from your studies, and you're not interested in browsing them either (given that you want them removed from view but not from study), am I correct? "

Yes - and I did mean for users. If something is, as you say, 500 sections long, then, apart from waiting for 500 sections to download on the list page, I would have to scroll through 499 sections to get to the section I want to add or edit a word in. Of course, in reality, I would want to start a new list well before that. That was what I meant by overgrown.

But, if you have some other way to remove older sections from view, then I guess that would also work. Otherwise, I'll be starting a new list when it gets too long.

I wasn't criticising a default list in the sense of choosing one for MDBG words go into. I think that's great, that we'll be able choose where they go. What I rather meant, is that currently the Misc list seemed hard wired to have special privileges for (semi) quick adding. As I said, it would make more sense for all lists to be able to be added to quickly.

PS. Adding items to the vocab box might push the page down, but so what? Once they're added it goes back to normal. I'd rather have the convenience over slightly peculiar aesthetics any day. It's not like the rest of the page is much aesthetically pleasing - it's functional.

Alternatively, you could always put two tabs on the page, one for lists as now, and one for the quick add as suggested, with the last tab viewed opening by default.

@scott, I think the point junglegirl was trying to make or what I interpreted it to be, was if you close the tab before the 5 seconds it doesn't add the word (regardless if you change the list and section manually). So now I'm trying to quick add 20 words from a new article it will take at least 1 minute to add them all.

I'll have to try the other problem later as I can't think of any words I want to add to test it.

@Byzanti: Ah okay I see what you mean by managing. I don't think it's an issue though for a number of reasons:

- For most people lists will never get that large. Since sections are now added once per month, it would take years for the list to get bigger than our textbook lists, or you'd have to be adding a lot of words per day to get large anytime soon.
- There are a number of shortcuts to get to the section you want. If you're studying the word or searching it in My Words, a link to the section it's in is in the word popup. You could also Ctrl-F to jump to the section you want rather than scroll.
- It will soon be possible to switch to a new list to add to if it's getting larger than you would like, or you want to quick add to a variety of lists.

Also, since the Misc list is intended to replace the queue, I imagine the vast majority of people will want to manage it as much as you would, that is not at all, so it getting large and somewhat unweildy will be a very rare hinderence. If it does start coming up often, we can look at solutions for it, such as being able to hide older sections, but for now since sections are no longer created every day in the misc list, this problem is hypothetical (as far as I know).

I guess I'm still not sure why you yourself need to switch to a new list when it 'gets too long' if you're not interested in managing or looking at the words in the list. What process are you trying to speed up by creating a new list when the first one gets too long, exactly? The only case I can think of is quickly getting to the section you are currently adding from, is that it? If so that's another issue we could address.

A separate tab or page might be better I think. It's just cramming too much functionality into one page to embed it directly there on the vocab nav where everything else is; it's a lot to absorb for a new user as it is.

@孟志书: Closing the tab should get the word added, so let me know if your tests show otherwise. I just tested it yesterday again so it should work... Just be wary of the bug I described above.

"I guess I'm still not sure why you yourself need to switch to a new list when it 'gets too long' if you're not interested in managing or looking at the words in the list."

I am very much interested in managing and looking at words in the list. I edit the definition of every word I add before it goes into study (I also remove the occasional word too when doing so). If I didn't do that I would waste huge amounts of time, stopping practice every time a new word comes up.

You're right that my case, in this particular sense is uncommon. So, I'm not asking for long list management, or anything like that. I'm quite happy to start a new list when I feel things get long. I'm just asking that whatever list I want to add to, I can add to quickly. And not, "we made this list as a replacement for the queue (newcomers: 'huh? queue? I just see lists?'), so we're going to make this one quicker than all your other lists for adding things to! No matter how you study!".

And quick adding is the same as what everyone is wanting too. That's all!

Aha, okay I thought since you wanted the old words removed from the list the way the queue used to do, that you weren't interested in going through the words in the way lists allow you to. Now I understand I think.

So do you go to the list right after quick adding words? I can see why that would be slow, having to get to the list, find the section you just added to at the bottom, then from that page scroll down to wherever the words you just added are. Is that a correct description of the steps you take, and why longer lists add to the time taken? If that's the case, then here's an idea: we could, maybe, have some sort of link shortcut that jumps you from quick adding directly to the part of the section you just added to (automatically scrolling to that part of the list) so you can go ahead and make your edits. I'm just throwing out the idea, I'm not sure we could actually do this (so many things to take into consideration, and right now the quick add system may end up being changed fundamentally).

Or do you tend to do the editing separately from adding? If you do this managing later, but it tends to be the section you're currently adding from, we could tweak the part of the list page that says where you currently are in a list and turn it into a link, so you can go there quickly that way.

In terms of making quick adding quicker, I've compiled all the suggestions and ideas from this thread and tonight the three of us will figure out which one or ones we'd prefer to do. If any more suggestions come up let me know!

I do both. Although, perhaps more separate than together.

Two situations where adding and editing are separate:

One situation is as others have said, where we just want to add a word or two. Before I'd either add via MDBG or load up my Queue bookmark and drop a word in. Right now anything I want to add like this is going into a sticky note on my desktop until I have enough words to warrant a big add.

Other times I'll have a class, want to add a lot of words, but edit later. (So preferably drop them into a quick add still).

However, sometimes I'll have a class, then want to go to edit the words afterwards (the current system is ok for this).

So if you have a good quick adding system, I don't think you need to do much more than that. If you do take up the idea of having a quick add box on a separate tab in the vocab page (but otherwise like the one in the mock up), then perhaps a quick link to "go to this list" would be a help.

And since you've asked this a few times... The section I'm adding words to practice from is never the one I'm adding words to or editing their definitions in. I like to keep a buffer, so only words I have had time to get familiar with come up in practice -- hence why the MDBG going in to the same list is important. It also keeps like words together. But that's probably just something I do myself.

I'm getting confused by the terminology surrounding "quick-adding" so for sake of clarity, I'll define my terms for purposes of this post only:

By "Word Popup" I mean the window that pops up when you click on a word in an example sentence or in a pre-made list.

By "Quick Add Button" I mean the (formerly green, now blue) button with the plus sign that appears next to unstudied words in the Word Popup.

By "Quick Add Popup" I mean the screen the pops up when you hit the Quick Add Button. This popup asks to which list and section you wish to add the word you are adding via the Quick Add Button.

By "Word Add Box" I mean any textbox that allows you to manually type in words for the purpose of adding them to a list.

The system could be changed most effectively for me if the Quick Add Buttons were restored to something as close to their original functionality as before. To that end, I would eliminate the Quick Add Popup and have the Quick Add Button add the word directly to Miscellaneous without asking. (I think this was described as the aharlekyn solution a few posts up.) It would seem to me that there is no reason why you would ever want to use a Quick Add Button to add to anything other than Miscellaneous (though I'd be curious if anyone can give an example of why they do). Words added through the Quick Add Button, for me at least, come about in one of two ways: I saw the word in an example sentence, or I saw the word in the "words containing this character" section of the Word Popup. Both of these are by their nature random, and there is no relationship between one word added via a Quick Add Button and the next. If I were actually seeking to create a list of words with a logical relationship to each other, I would be using some form of a Word Add Box to type them in, rather then just hitting the button as I stumbled on them.

The downside to this solution: It is utterly nontransparent to new users. Fortunately, I'm not a new user, so I can say "screw them, this is the solution that would be best for me." But since the Skritter Team doesn't work for just me, I (very reluctantly) give a second choice solution I could live with:

When you click on the Quick Add Button, it automatically adds it to Miscellaneous (or whatever the last list you added to is). A new and improved Quick Add Popup then pops up and says "[Word] has been added to [Miscellaneous]." User is presented with options: "Okay," "Move it to a Different List" and, most crucially, "Remove." This same new and improved Quick Add Popup should come up any time you hit a brown Quick Add Button for a word that's already in a list. Astute readers will note that for adding, this doesn't save you the extra click you need to get through the Quick Add Popup in the current setup. But it would really, really help solve the problem I mentioned a few posts ago, which is that I sometimes get overzealous when looking at the "Words Containing this Character" section of the Word Popup for a new character, and start clicking the Quick Add Buttons with reckless abandon before realizing my imprudence. Living with 2 clicks to add is a trade-off I could accept in return for cutting down the interminable clickfest it takes to subtract a word I described in my post above.

@Scott. Cheers! Now works like a dream

All right, we had our meeting, going over all these suggestions (some for the second time.... Byzanti... ;) ) and we think we've got a good plan laid out, synthesizing everything you guys said with our own ideas and goals. There are three major changes we're going to make that will address pretty much everything we think.

Problem: There isn't a good way to manage changes other than diving into many-sectioned lists.

Solution: we're going to have a separate page for quick adding, rather than have it be a popup on the vocab nav. Not only will this allow you to have a page to bookmark for quick adding, but it will also provide us with the perfect place to display your recent changes to all your lists, which will be a good way to manage those changes and tweak (or undo) them if you so desire. That will, for example, make it easy for you Byzanti to get to your recent edits so you can remove some words you changed your mind about or edit the definitions.

Problem: Having to confirm what list you're adding to each time you quick add, such as from the word popup, is too time consuming.

Solution: Overhaul the new word popup so that it no longer requires a button click in order to confirm adding it to a list, but still allows the actions dbkluck mentioned. It will add the word straight away and allow you to undo that change, or instead add it to a different list. Not only that, but this popup will not block your usage of the site, it will act more like a temporary notification so that you can simply ignore it and it will go away on its own. This way, for example, you could add a whole bunch of words from the word popup with one click each, but still be able to undo or modify those changes if you choose to do so. This really needs to be designed and its details worked out so what I just said may end up changing, but this is about what we're aiming for. We just gotta have our cake and eat it too.

Problem: It still takes a while to get to a page where you can enter words to be quick added, even if there's a separate page that can be bookmarked...

Solution: Add a keyboard shortcut sitewide that will instantly open up a quick add popup. This popup will be draggable and allow you to continue interacting with the site so you can copy and paste words into it, and it means you can quick add from anywhere on the site. The trick will be finding a good shortcut we can assign it to...

So... what do you guys think?

Thumbs up! Good luck with the programming and integration ;)

Yes, that all sounds great to me if you can pull it off. Thanks for listening!

It will be much appreciated. It will make reading articles on the web and Skritter all while adding words to Skritter go much more smoothly. Thanks!

Hurray - sounds much improved! Will words quick added go to the end of the list, or do we still have to choose a section? (Former is better).

Many thanks!

They'll go to the end of the list. If you click the button to change where it goes that's when you'll have the option of choosing a particular section as well.

Sounds like we've come to an agreement then! I'll get the scientists working on the word adding technology right away.

Superb!

Sorry to extend this post even more but I just wanted to say that it still takes quite while to add a word once you reach the end of the miscellaneous list.

So for example say you are studying List A but not the miscellaneous list (M) which has no unlearned words in it and then add just one word into M. After you have put that word into the system (so M is now finished) and go on to add a word from List A it usually takes about 2 minutes for the system to find a word (at least this is my experience, maybe it's just me :S)...it just sits there saying 'looking for a word to add'.

Hmm, I'm going to need some in depth information to figure out why this is going on. Next time you see this happening, I'd like you to go to this page:

http://www.skritter.com/report/list_status

(or www.skritter.cn, either works)

Go to this page again a couple more times while you're waiting for it to finish adding, and once when it's finished adding. Each time you go to that page it will send me a report of what's going on. A few reports (at least two total) from beginning to end should be enough info to debug this.

Thanks!

Done :)...used both addresses

Okay I think I see what's happening. I uploaded a fix. Let me know if it's still giving you trouble after this.

@Scott, still taking a long time to add a single word to the miscellaneous list :@

Do you mean to a list or from a list? That is, is quick adding to the list taking a while or adding from the list while you're studying?

呼呼，我的帖子还活着哦！

I had been away from Skritter for a while, and feel very intimidated after reading through this thread (finally gave up reading). I barely felt that I understood and fully appreciated the old structure, and now it seems I have to re-learn the new layout, which I am willing to do. Is there an updated "user's manual" that incorporates the changes? I don't want to get bogged down in nostalgia, just tell me how it works now.

While I'm studying. The M list is complete, and then I add a new word to it. But when I actually try to add the word while I am studying it seems as if Skritter is starting at the beginning of the list searching for a new word until it finds the one at the end that I just added (which can take a while sometimes).

@Antimacassar: I think I fixed it, will upload soon onto beta to see if it works. I'll work on it off this forum thread:

http://www.skritter.com/forum/topic?id=138116910&comments=5

@podster: This forum thread isn't really meant to be explanatory, it was for us to figure out how we should improve the adding system so it was fast. To read about these new features, check out these blog posts:

http://blog.skritter.com/2011/09/new-list-system-all-powerful-lists.html

http://blog.skritter.com/2011/10/quick-add-shortcut.html

http://blog.skritter.com/2011/10/quick-add-page.html

http://blog.skritter.com/2011/10/quick-add-bar.html

There's no user manual for the site; generally we change things around enough that maintaining a full guide would be a major time sink to keep updated, and we really strive to make things easy enough to use and have explanations near them if needed (like next to many settings there are 'learn more' links). The rest is handled by the FAQ, which you can get to by clicking 'help' above. And the blog is where you should keep an eye for explanations of new features. Other than that, send us questions if you have any, and we'll try and adjust the site to be easier to use based on what gives people trouble.