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Showing character frequency in character popup

Foo Choo Choon   July 24th, 2010 3:02a.m.

Checking the frequency of a character can help a lot when you want to decide whether or not to study a specific character.
I've recently used this list: http://lingua.mtsu.edu/chinese-computing/statistics/char/list.php?Which=MO

For instance, somewhere I found the word 蹩脚 (shoddy). The English word is quite common, but the character 蹩 is merely the 4308th most commonly used character. Had I know that earlier, I probably wouldn't have added the word to my queue.
I've also been studying 戗 and 祢 (I would still study the latter one nonetheless), now surprisingly at no. 5957 and 6020.

Using the method has its flaws, e.g. it's based on a non-representative source and neglects current trends, but it can be a great tool, especially for advanced learners.
Importing the file should be fairly straightforward, and the new word popup provides a great place to show it.

murrayjames   July 24th, 2010 4:03a.m.
balsa   July 24th, 2010 4:50a.m.

Excellent! I am adding those to my HSKs lists. Though I think I won't be practicing the Writing part for those.

skritterjohan   July 24th, 2010 5:49a.m.

I have asked about word/character frequency a few times before and Nick has said it would probably be incorporated in the new popup at some time.

Nick said though that they'd probably use frequency modified for how often the character appears in Chinese study books.

nick   July 24th, 2010 9:09a.m.

Yes; we have algorithms to look at all the textbooks we have and weight characters and words by combining standard frequency plus the order of occurrence in the textbooks (and the level of each textbook). We will probably put that sort of information in the popup at some point.

Rolands   July 27th, 2010 7:36a.m.

@ murrayjames

I am among those who didn't know. Thanks for posting that, and it shows which characters I know! Awesome

jcdoss   July 27th, 2010 10:33a.m.

OK, here comes a neophyte question. Prepare yourself!

How useful is it to study individual characters like that? I've already started studying off a list similar to the one referenced above, but I'm finding many times that in order to understand individual characters, I have to look up words in which those characters are used.

Perhaps the gist of my question is, as someone still fairly new to the language, is it better to study individual characters (that may have different meanings, tones, etc), or is it better to study them in context, ie, within common words?

jww1066   July 27th, 2010 11:13a.m.

@jcdoss I think the 10,000 yuan question is whether you already have some familiarity with the characters or not. If you can already speak and read some Chinese, it is probably fine to run through a list of individual characters if you're somewhat familiar with them already. If your reaction is usually "oh, so THAT's how you write 肉" you don't need to learn 牛肉, 鸡肉, 羊肉, etc.

On the other hand, if you are a beginner like me, you will find yourself banging your head against individual characters like 以, 为, and 干 that have a lot of different meanings in different contexts. To deal with those, I have to learn them in the context of a word or phrase. Words and phrases also have the advantage that they can actually be used in conversation and writing; for example, while having a conversation with my tutor last night, I was able to use 大同小异 (which I learned here) in order to express "mostly the same". He almost fell off his chair and asked "how did you learn that?!?!?!"

James

jcdoss   July 27th, 2010 11:48a.m.

Did he literally fall off his chair? ;-)

So, how does a wrote beginner sort out which characters are fine to learn on their own (ie, 我,他,是) from those best learned in context?

I've been doing thusly: I have a custom list of characters that I'm going through. Whenever I get to an odd one that seems to have multiple meanings, or the meaning isn't all that clear as a standalone character (ie, 当,经,就 come to mind), then I consult Yellowbridge which is kind enough to present a short list of common words using said character. I then add one or two to my list that seem like ones I ought to know (ie, for the above, 当时,当前 were the two I picked).

Not sure how effective this method is, though, since it takes a while and I still end up kind of confused. I'm open to better ways if you got 'em.

jww1066   July 27th, 2010 12:05p.m.

He was definitely pleasantly surprised.

I think you basically have the right idea. If the individual character is simple enough (like 人) don't worry about adding words for it until you actually run across words you feel like studying for their own sake. If the character is causing you trouble (当 and 经 caused me a lot of trouble too) then it needs special attention of some kind.

My goal is to learn to speak and write, not to learn characters per se. So that seems to me to suggest that it's completely OK if you don't know what 当 means, as long as you know 当然, 不敢当, and some other common usages.

As for "since it takes a while", I don't think there are really any shortcuts.

James

jww1066   July 28th, 2010 9:51a.m.

P.S. I am in the middle of an experiment with Russian which relates to this issue of studying in context. I have an Anki deck where the questions each have a single Russian word, and the answers are definitions which include lots of example sentences using that word. When I am learning a new word, if I don't study the example sentences it takes me many, many repetitions to remember the word. If on the other hand I pick two example sentences and read them aloud several times until I can repeat them with my eyes closed, I can generally remember the word on the next repetition, and can often remember the example sentences.

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