I've just uploaded a bunch of changes to the way the example sentences (which are in alpha testing right now) work. I was persuaded to set it up such that you have to choose an example sentence from the word popup before you will start to be prompted with it--that way it's not just another background thing slowing you down, but rather something you've actively considered.

To get to the word popup to choose a sentence, then, you either press "D" or "K" or click the word's magnifying glass in the prompt.

You can now also click on any word in an example sentence to get its word popup, in case you didn't know it, and from there you could add it to your studies.

Alpha testers, let me know when you find bugs and ways it can be improved--thanks! Barring anything major, I'll put it into beta in a couple days and everyone can try it.

Are you wanting us to email you about bugs or post them in this thread?

I already came across one. 理念 I tried to pull up the dialogue for example sentences and it wouldn't let me. I hit the hour glass and could only add example sentences for 念。 I hit the d key and couldn't select any sentence at all for it. There wasn't a dialogue present for me to pick one.

@nick When I click on the popup for 境 and try to select an example sentence, it says "Because you're not logged in, your choice will not save." However, I *am* logged in. Then when I click the example sentence I want, it doesn't update the practice page.

James

i'm really looking forward to this - i have wanted it for ages and it will be a brilliant feature and i think it will help loads of people.

look forward to the beta in a few days

Same. I think this will be brilliant.

Fantastic feature as always, thanks! However i think there is one small bug. If I choose a sentence where the character is first in the sentence it will show the character directly without any blank. I have this word e.g: 接着. I choose to use this sentence: 接着怎么样了? It will always show up with the word visible. When I tried to change to another sentence where the word where in the middle it show the blanks instead. The click and add feature is awesome, thanks! I have already added several new words that way and it works great.

Nice! Much improvement! Few little bugs though:

1. There's no option to select "none" once a sentence has been selected.

2. If we click to look up a different word in the sentence, the example sentence shows up in the prompt beneath it. Does this mean the example sentence is also added to the other word? Eg. original word was 进步, word looked up was 英语, example sentence appears on both --- so do they both now have the same example sentence?

3. I'm getting this message "Click one of these example sentences to select it for this prompt. (Because you're not logged in, your choice will not save.)" I am logged in...

Cheers

sorry nick - Not a fan of having to click around and wait for loading to see it - this slows everything down and it's out of the usual flow. I did't see it as a background thing when it was automatic, i saw it as a tool to increase understanding in an instant, one which you could choose to ignore if it wasn't needed and it did't get in the way!

Will there be an option to define your own sentences ?

mw - you can already do that by writing them directly in the customs definitions field

Neil - yeah, it does take too long to load as is, but I strongly disagree with you about it not being a distraction. If there was a direct button link to the sentence selection, or maybe done like mnemonics are now it would be faster.

I agree with Neil on this one. Leave us the option to change the sentences at will, but put a default sentence up as well. The odds are I won't bother to use this feature since it will slow things down a lot. I will probably only use it on the most perplexing of words, but, then again, on those words I ask my Chinese teacher anyway. Being able to select a sentence is great, but having it set at blank as the default isn't a good idea in my opinion.

Personally, I'm also on the side of leaving up the default sentence until we decide otherwise. I'd say it should be structured like this: a base option of whether or not to see the default example sentences (I know, adding new options complicates, but it's quite useful here), and the option to choose a different sentence/no sentence/create a sentence manually. It could also be a three-option selector of "Don't view example sentences/View example sentences/View example sentences + defaults". I'm personally not going to choose a sentence for each item I study, but when they're there and I've got the time to check them out, they're useful. Actually, if I start with the defaults, I'd end up more likely to choose one personally, at least if the default sentence wasn't to my liking.

It's much like the point that was made in the recent thread necromancy that became an Anki vs. Skritter debate - part of the joy of Skritter is that it's relatively simple to get set up - if it takes extra effort on every item to get an example sentence displayed, I'm much less likely to bother, since it complicates the setup. Allowing default sentences to display automatically expedites the setup of the feature while maintaining the power-usability of the feature for those who want it.

For what purpose do you want each word to have a sentence by default?

A one time double check the usage? Fair enough.

Will you remember how to use it if you're just glancing over the sentence? I doubt it -- it's Chinese by osmosis.

You would need to study the sentence itself to get a solid grip on it, for it to enter your active vocabulary.

If you do not, and are unfamiliar with the sentence, each time you hit the word are you going to want to keep reading an unfamiliar sentence to remind you of the usage? This would make your Skrittering very slow. Probably so slow that you'd just start ignoring the a good proportion of example sentences.

My purpose for starting using example sentences in the first place was not to learn about how to use the word on Skritter (that was in class, or through sentence I had already added), it was to make Skritter faster.

All the sentences I had added were also in a flash cards program. So in a glance at the sentence I could tell what word Skritter was asking me for, and if I couldn't, generally reading the sentence would make the word roll off my tongue. Example sentences were not there to be thought about. Skritter suddenly became much faster.

If you just have a bunch of random sentences, sure it might temporarily remind you of its usage, but it's not going to stick in your memory. You'd have to think about it each time you see it, and it'll be like new each time (and that's assuming the sentence given was even at the right level for you). Skritter becomes slow, or the sentences become ignored, or just looked at quickly at you don't take any of it in.

My suggestion to Nick was that while you cannot force people to use a flash cards program or some such, you can get them to actually think about the sentence. Is it at the right level, do I know the words, is the usage obvious, will it be quick enough that I wouldn't have to figure it out each time..

This way, the important words that you do need the extra help on, you can display an example sentence. A suitable, useful example sentence that will help you each time you look at it.

If everything has an example sentence, anything possibly useful gets lost in a deluge of data. Do you want to read the example sentence on every word, just in case it helps? Can you be bothered to read the example sentence on a word which you've forgotten the usage of? Maybe it's slow, maybe it's not helpful or at the right level. I bet you'll just start to ignore a whole lot of the sentences. What could have been useful is now not. Too saturated.

So either the example sentences become a lot less useful - a distraction - or Skritter becomes intolerably slow.

By considering the sentence beforehand you know it's worth looking at, it wont take up much time. Skritter remains fast, and you get all the benefits of example sentences for the words that need it.

I will admit, I also have selfish reasons for not wanting them showing up by default. As I like to select my own sentences (whether using Skritter's examples, or my ones), I will waste time trying to read a sentence which I'm not familiar with, trying to figure out why I don't recognise it, why it's not helping me -- before realising I didn't put it there in the first place. It's the same sort of thing I've been talking about - Skritter becomes slow because of this deluge of data which you must take time to think about. I've put sentences there because they're generally useful, and make Skritter quicker. I don't want to read a load of rubbish which isn't going to help.

So anyway, it was my suggestion that they don't show by default. However, I don't think it works as well currently. It is sadly too slow to chose a sentence by hitting the magnify glass (so either a direct button, or a field ever present like mnemonics).

But I do think it's a very bad idea for Skritter to swamp is with this stuff by default. Keep Skritter simple and show us immediately useful stuff on the prompt that will allow us to get through characters quickly.

Feel free to disagree.

Thx

Byzanti - no worries, the only thing certain is that everyone has their own styles and preferences and poor old nick has to cop it all！

by the way nick - if you can avoid using mouseovers in the interface it would be appreciated - there are a fair few of us using touchscreens

Err, yeah sorry, should have less cascading torrents of text :p.

Well, different personalities do different things, but basically I have caught myself stop using them all together. I am adding an average of 30 words a day which I then write down on a note pad. That list is then sent to my Chinese teacher via email and we go over them together. While I am fighting the queue that never stops, set at 95% retention rate right now, it is too natural for me not to bother with the sentences.

Sorry Nick, it looks like you really need another settings button. On, off, and on but you have to manually select one each time a new word comes up.

Personally, the sentences provide benchmarks and practice - I get to practice my reading and increase my competency (by seeing translations of sentences that elucidate words I don't know, and ditto with pinyin for unfamiliar characters). Perhaps this is something I should learn another SRS program for, and then seek out or write my own sentences, and then study from there, but that overcomplicates things. That's why I think a three-option box (or even two, default sentences showing or not showing) would be perfect, even though it goes against the Skritter philosophy of giving too many options and thus overwhelming new users.

If I don't have the time to read the sentences, I don't read them. But when they're showing, I typically read at least a few a session, and that's good practice for me, whether I'm learning usage, reading something simple, or pushing myself to get as much as I can out of a sentence I don't have the vocabulary for.

Then again, unlike you, Byzanti, I don't currently have a teacher - though I'm hoping to seal the deal with a 对外汉语 major at 华中师范大学 in the next couple days - I was hoping for someone whose schedule fit mine better, but that would have limited me to 4th year seniors, and none of them answered my friend's 豆瓣 post on my behalf.

west316: for some words, there are no sentences in the corpus. 理念 is one of those, so nothing shows up. Do you think it should have a "No example sentences" message instead of emptiness?

James, Byzanti: Hmm, not sure what's happening with the logged-out thing. I'll try a fix. Still see it?

Mandarinboy: Hmm, I'm not seeing it--what kind of prompt was it for 接着 where it didn't do the cloze deletion? Note that it doesn't do the cloze when you first pick the sentence, and it only does it for writing prompts.

Byzanti: Right, I forgot to make a "None" option; I'll add that to my list. No, the example sentence is only for the word you just chose; I'll make sure it only updates the word popup it's aimed at.

mw: Later we can think about how to do user-submitted sentences, but for the near future we're going to try it with just this set--so yes, as Byzanti does, put your own sentences as custom definitions for now.

Neil: I see your point about hovering and touchscreens. I'll plan to add click-to-toggle on those tooltips.

About showing vs. not showing default sentences: oh dear. I guess I'll... uhh...

@Nick I think a "no example sentence available" message would be a good idea. Thanks.

@nick no, that problem seems to have been resolved.

@Nick - I know you guys don't particularly like to overcomplicate things, but a simple two-option box, or even a check box (Enable/Disable default example sentences) would allow both (perfectly valid) sides of the issue to get what's best for them. It's up to you guys, but I feel like that's the best way. Defaults could be chosen by a voting process, so once a sentence takes a lead, it remains the default until it loses the lead. You could also set Skritter to select (sans vote) the default sentence upon studying a word without one selected, so that users with default sentences on don't find their sentences switching about as votes are cast.

Those are just my two cents on the issue, feel free to do with them as you see fit.

I kind of lost the example sentences. I mean I had them and then they were gone and I wondered what happened to them. I actually had to read this post to know I could find them by clicking the word popup.

Then I figured why doesnt it show me one sentence by default like it did before? I like the option of changing it but why not give me a default? Then I read some of the comments on here and I realised I had been ignoring most of the example sentences and actually only reading them for words I needed some context on, because I found out paying too much attention to them slows me down too much.

So perhaps not showing them is a good idea after all? Maybe?

I definitely prefer to have the sentences enabled by default. Partially, that's because I understand most of them without looking up new characters.
Byzanti has personal reasons for being against default sentences (own flashcard method), but his line of argument doesn't apply for most of us.


@ Byzanti

"Feel free to disagree."
I do.

"Will you remember how to use it if you're just glancing over the sentence?"
Sometimes.

"You would need to study the sentence itself to get a solid grip on it, for it to enter your active vocabulary."
Probably you're right. But often it's enough to get it into the passive memory.

"If you do not, and are unfamiliar with the sentence, each time you hit the word are you going to want to keep reading an unfamiliar sentence to remind you of the usage?"
Yes.

"This would make your Skrittering very slow. Probably so slow that you'd just start ignoring the a good proportion of example sentences."
It's definitely faster than looking up how to use the word or manually looking for an appropriate sample sentence.

"My purpose for starting using example sentences in the first place was not to learn about how to use the word on Skritter"
I'd like to use example sentences that way (and I'm probably not the only one).

"If you just have a bunch of random sentences, sure it might temporarily remind you of its usage, but it's not going to stick in your memory."
Spaced repetition shows: If you're repeatedly "reminded of its usage", you'll learn a lot about it.

"You'd have to think about it each time you see it, and it'll be like new each time (and that's assuming the sentence given was even at the right level for you)."
Why should it be like new? --> spaced repetition

"Skritter becomes slow, or the sentences become ignored, or just looked at quickly at you don't take any of it in."
see above

"My suggestion to Nick was that while you cannot force people to use a flash cards program or some such, you can get them to actually think about the sentence. Is it at the right level, do I know the words, is the usage obvious, will it be quick enough that I wouldn't have to figure it out each time."
I thought about sample sentences a lot while they were enabled by default. Now I do it rather rarely, manually enabling sentences simply takes too much time.

"This way, the important words that you do need the extra help on, you can display an example sentence. A suitable, useful example sentence that will help you each time you look at it."
Most of the random sentences are already enormously helpful.

"If everything has an example sentence, anything possibly useful gets lost in a deluge of data. Do you want to read the example sentence on every word, just in case it helps? Can you be bothered to read the example sentence on a word which you've forgotten the usage of? Maybe it's slow, maybe it's not helpful or at the right level. I bet you'll just start to ignore a whole lot of the sentences. What could have been useful is now not. Too saturated."
Ignoring is an important function of the brain. It helps you filter out the stuff you need. I'd naturally look at the sentences that could help me and that I'm interested in.

"So either the example sentences become a lot less useful - a distraction - or Skritter becomes intolerably slow."
see above

"By considering the sentence beforehand you know it's worth looking at, it wont take up much time. Skritter remains fast, and you get all the benefits of example sentences for the words that need it."
Manually enabling sentences is far too slow.

"I will admit, I also have selfish reasons for not wanting them showing up by default. As I like to select my own sentences (whether using Skritter's examples, or my ones), I will waste time trying to read a sentence which I'm not familiar with, trying to figure out why I don't recognise it, why it's not helping me -- before realising I didn't put it there in the first place. It's the same sort of thing I've been talking about - Skritter becomes slow because of this deluge of data which you must take time to think about. I've put sentences there because they're generally useful, and make Skritter quicker. I don't want to read a load of rubbish which isn't going to help."

Now, your line of argument finally makes sense - but only in your particular case.

"So anyway, it was my suggestion that they don't show by default. However, I don't think it works as well currently. It is sadly too slow to chose a sentence by hitting the magnify glass (so either a direct button, or a field ever present like mnemonics)."
All this should give hints on how to improve the system.

"But I do think it's a very bad idea for Skritter to swamp is with this stuff by default. Keep Skritter simple and show us immediately useful stuff on the prompt that will allow us to get through characters quickly."
I disagree, see above.

Fair points. Keep in mind though mu'er, your Chinese level is significantly above the rest of ours. Whereas all sentences are appropriate for you and easy to take in, they wont be for all others.

I guess I view the area as a prompt for writing the character or word, not a reading class, not to learn about it. And that's why I don't want it cluttered. It's much like other people's mnemonics displaying by default. But yes, they do conflict with my own sentences (and not just me, mw and anyone else who choose to use them).

Poor Nick...

@ Byzanti My Chinese isn't as good as 穆儿's but I can read the majority of sentences with relative ease. Even if I don't know all of the words I can ferret out the meaning the vast majority of the time. The way I was using the sentences was pretty much in line with 穆儿。 Sorry Byzanti, but we all tend to view the world from our skill level. The world from my eyes looks a lot more like 穆儿's than yours.

I will agree with one thing you said, though. Poor Nick...

@nick and @byzanti I guess my biggest surprise here was that we didn't have any advance warning of this change. Apparently you two discussed it privately and boom! it was changed. That's a little out of character; usually Nick runs things by people on the forum to see what they think, but this one was done behind closed doors.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't say out of character, it's just that usually things work out for the better and people don't complain :p. To be fair on Nick, it is still in alpha, stuff was just being tried out and it's clear he wasn't going to keep this way with disagreement like this.

I guess I'll have to concede. I still think it's a bad move, but people obviously like it the way it was.

We'll try showing sentences again by default, and if more people pop up showing Byzanti's preference, perhaps we'll make an option for it. I'll see if I can't jimmy a button to more directly select another one or none in there.

I'm liking it already again.
one small bug is that the word writing + tone prompt situation gives away the writing of the 2nd character as it shows in the sentence.

Better?

@ Nick

I like it. Thanks for changing it back.

Just saw the example sentences today. I like them, except for one thing. Sometimes I don't recognize all the words, so I'll hover over the sentence to get the pinyin, but then it'll also show the pinyin for the word that is being tested. I don't actually want that! I'd prefer that the pinyin for that be censored.

I think I also found that it'll reveal the pinyin if you're in pinyin/definition mode. But then you shouldn't really be looking at the sentences in that case...?

Also (unrelated) I'd like to mention that the vertical stroke for 5 (wu) is hard to detect.

I'd like to have the option of turning the sentences off as well. Right now I am mostly using skritter for writing practice, not vocab building so the sentences are just distracting to me.

Also, it is a big problem when the character you are trying to remember shows up in the sentence. This just happened with me and 眼睛。 The sentence was, 眼炎__的发炎.